Andrew Lloyd Webber

Hi there people! I have just been involved in a very successful production of Jesus Christ Superstar, and I would find it very interesting to know what everyone's favourite character or song is from this wonderful musical. However if you aren't familiar with Jesus Christ Superstar, what is your favourite Andrew Lloyd Webber musical?
OK! I'll start off.....My favourite character is Judas and my favourite song is "Gethsemane". Apart from Jesus Christ Superstar, I also like Cats!
Now its your turn!

hey there,
love jcs! gethsemane has to be the best song no doubt and CATS is incredible too! mugojerrie and rumpleteazer is my fav from that, well other than memory!!! i also love joseph, and i have to say i was sceptical but "h" from steps does a brilliant job in the title role, also i cant wait to see the new lloyd webber "woman in white" anyone have any info on it???

hi!

Bombalurina and Munkustrap are my faviourite characters from Cats and my faviourite song from there is Macavity, which is sung by Bombalurina and Dementer. Um, does anybody know if Bombalurina and Dementer are sisters? Just wondering!
oh, and of course, i also love The Rum Tum Tugger!!.....yep he sure is nice.....VERY nice.

i haven't seen Jesus Christ Superstar yet, but i don't really like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat that much, but then again i have only seen that on video!

Phantom of the Opera is also great and my faviourte song's from there
are Prima Donna and Masquerade.

thanks Amy! this was a fun post to write!!
laura

I can't believe I'm admitting to liking some of Lloyd Webber's stuff...
Oh the shame!

Jesus Christ Superstar:
Favourite character - Herod (played him in high school many many years ago)
Favourite song - Pilate's Dream

All of Lloyd Webber:
Favourite show - By Jeeves
Favourite character - Che (from Evita, especially as played by Antonio Banderas)
Favourite song - Take that look off your face (from Tell Me On a Sunday, the song bit of Song & Dance)

Paul Treasure wrote:
>
> I can't believe I'm admitting to liking some of Lloyd
> Webber's stuff...
> Oh the shame!

Why? I want to know why Andrew Lloyd Webber is considered the devil incarnate of musical theatre despite the fact that it was basically him and Cameron Mackintosh that actually brought musical theatre back from the dead and into the publics favour once again at the end of the 1970's / 1980's?

Hmmm....???





Thou artless milk-livered lout!

Simon Holt wrote:
>
> Why? I want to know why Andrew Lloyd Webber is considered the
> devil incarnate of musical theatre despite the fact that it
> was basically him and Cameron Mackintosh that actually
> brought musical theatre back from the dead and into the
> publics favour once again at the end of the 1970's / 1980's?

The main reason that Lloyd Webber is considered the devil incarnate, is that he is basically the inventor of that most pernicious of all musical theatre styles, the high concept musical.

His earlier works, especially Superstar and Evita, are some of the best musicals ever written. However, he does reach a certain point (roughly around Cats) where the quality of his music starts to drop off a bit, and is replaced by absolutely brilliant production values. LetÂ’s be honest hereÂ… do you really come out of a Lloyd Webber humming the tunes? Or do you come out humming the scenery? I know thatÂ’s what I did with Phantom.

Since Phantom his quality has really waned, and he has started writing that even more pernicious style: the Power-Ballad Musical (eighty percent of the score is tripe but those three songs are brilliant!)

In many ways the success of the High Concept Lloyd Webber ushered in a dark age for the musical. The musical was NOT dead or dying before Lloyd Webber and co. It was actually quite vibrant and very popular. But during the eighties and nineties people stopped seeing musicals unless they were bigger and brighter with more effects and stunning costumes and who really cares about the music anyway!

Let us have a quick look at the Tony winning musicals BC (Before Cats):
Nine; 42nd Street; Evita; Sweeney Todd; AinÂ’t MisbehavinÂ’; Annie; A Chorus Line.
We have two of the greatest musicals EVER written (Sweeney Todd and A Chorus Line) as well as some of the most popular (Annie and 42nd Street).
Does this really look like a dying art form to you?!

The sad thing is that there were really only two composers successfully resisting this trend: Stephen Sondheim and Alan Menken, unlikely allies, but allies nonetheless.

Sondheim took the high art end of the battlefield, producing musically and artistically challenging works that maintained the genre right to be called an art form (and not just entertainment). Sunday in the Park with George, for example, is VERY esoteric musical, and yet I know of no one who has seen it who hasnÂ’t loved it! Into the Woods, while being quite tuneful does ask some very important literary questions, about the nature of fairy tale, and how important is it to us in our daily lives. And do I even need to mention Assassins?

Menken, on the other hand, wrote mainly for the screen, but still managed to produce some of the most memorable and truly entertaining scores of the period. Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas (nice score shame about the film) etc. To the point where the stage version of Beauty and the Beast is now the second longest-running musical on Broadway, celebrating its tenth anniversary only a couple of months ago. While the effects from B&B can be considered impressive, it is actually the brilliant score that people remember.
With the Menken camp comes his Disney cohort Elton John.
There are only two composers with more than one show running on Broadway at the moment: Menken (B&B and Little Shop of Horrors) and Elton John (The Lion King and Aida).

Funnily enough both Menken and John have worked with Lloyd WebberÂ’s original and best lyricist Tim Rice.
Food for thought, maybe it is actually the lyricist that makes the show great and not the composer? IÂ’ve always said I thought Sondheim was a lyricist who writes his own music not a composer who writes his own wordsÂ…

I hope in my rambling way I have managed to demonstrate some of the reasons why Lloyd Webber is considered so lowly by many. As I said, even many ALW haters will agree about the brilliance of the AL-W/Time Rice collaborations, but from there onÂ…

HereÂ’s to hoping that the man still has a couple of GREAT musicals in him. His Variations and his Requiem will always be two of my favourite pieces of late twentieth century music, but a lot of his musicals do leave a lot to be desired.

My biggest problem is that whenever I've seen Lloyd Webber interviewed (or performing - which is rare) he's come across as a bit of a prat. A genius almost certainly - just not very likeable! I saw a video of the Making of Sunset Blvd and he spoke about how he took the tune for Sunset Blvd from another piece he'd written a long while before. His words (practically verbatim) were 'if you're a bit of a sleuth you might be able to pick up how this piece and Sunset Blvd are similar'. he then proceeded to play what to me sounded exactly like Sunset Blvd. So yeah - I like his music (most of it anyway) I just don't like the man himself very much!

Paul Treasure wrote:
>
> His earlier works, especially Superstar and Evita, are some
> of the best musicals ever written. However, he does reach a
> certain point (roughly around Cats) where the quality of his
> music starts to drop off a bit, and is replaced by absolutely
> brilliant production values.

I think the word you're looking for is commercialism.

>LetÂ’s be honest hereÂ… do you
> really come out of a Lloyd Webber humming the tunes? Or do
> you come out humming the scenery? I know thatÂ’s what I did
> with Phantom.

Well actually, most of the time I knew the music before I saw the show - thanks to the isolation of Perth. :-p And I must say that he is very hummable. Most of Lloyd Webbers tunes go where you expect them to go, hence memorability. Most of Sondheim doesn't do that. Yes, granted there are some tunes that do, but most don't. You can't tell me "Sunday in the Park with George" (the song) and "Into the Woods" (the song) and most of the Pacific Overtures score is hummable.

> Since Phantom his quality has really waned, and he has
> started writing that even more pernicious style: the
> Power-Ballad Musical (eighty percent of the score is tripe
> but those three songs are brilliant!)

I disagree. Aspects of Love and Sunset Boulevard are great scores as a whole despite the number of "hit songs" in them. Ok, there are some crap songs in there too, eg. Every Movie's A Circus and his other two shows, Whistle Down the Wind and The Beautiful Game have more crap songs than good songs, however, most composers are guilty of that, classical and musical theatre. Just look at boring Brahms or some of Mozart, or Richard Rodgers, Claude-Michel Schoenberg and even the beloved Sondheim. They all have crap songs.

> In many ways the success of the High Concept Lloyd Webber
> ushered in a dark age for the musical. The musical was NOT
> dead or dying before Lloyd Webber and co. It was actually
> quite vibrant and very popular.

*sigh* Thats not what I meant. I meant that the public majority were suddenly interested in musical theatre again. Not just the people interested in musicals and theatre. Everyone knows who he is. Can that be said of Sondheim (believe me, its true), Alan Menken, Stephen Schwartz, Jason Robert Brown, Charles Strouse, Jerry Bock and even Kander and Ebb? The public majority do not know who these people are, but they sure as hell have heard of Lloyd Webber. (I'm not dissing the above composers because I love them all - I'm just attempting to make a point. :-) Most people know their shows, not who they are.

>But during the eighties and nineties people stopped seeing musicals >unless they were
> bigger and brighter with more effects and stunning costumes
> and who really cares about the music anyway!

I think that is across the arts really. How often to people see straight plays now? Or local theatre in general? Or shows without big star names? I think the price of tickets has come into the "stoppage" of seeing theatre. But I'll let that point slide at the moment. See my other posts. :-)

> Let us have a quick look at the Tony winning musicals BC
> (Before Cats):
> Nine; 42nd Street; Evita; Sweeney Todd; AinÂ’t MisbehavinÂ’;
> Annie; A Chorus Line.
> We have two of the greatest musicals EVER written (Sweeney
> Todd and A Chorus Line) as well as some of the most popular
> (Annie and 42nd Street).
> Does this really look like a dying art form to you?!

See the above comment about "death". I'm not denying anything. Have you noticed that all bar a Lloyd Webber show (Evita) are American? Perhaps I should have mentioned earlier that my viewpoint of Lloyd Webbers impact on musical theatre is on _British_ musical theatre scene, not Broadway.

> Sondheim took the high art end of the battlefield, producing
> musically and artistically challenging works that maintained
> the genre right to be called an art form (and not just
> entertainment).

Yes. And how often do these get performed? Art, yes, but intellectually or musically accessible to the common man? No.

>Sunday in the Park with George, for example,
> is VERY esoteric musical, and yet I know of no one who has
> seen it who hasnÂ’t loved it!

Well, I don't particularly like it. I think its too complex for its own good. Its not particularly "entertaing" either - no big dance numbers. He he... And I don't see Sunday being revived too often.

>Into the Woods, while being
> quite tuneful does ask some very important literary
> questions, about the nature of fairy tale, and how important
> is it to us in our daily lives. And do I even need to mention
> Assassins?

Ditto about the "art" factor.

> Menken, on the other hand, wrote mainly for the screen, but
> still managed to produce some of the most memorable and truly
> entertaining scores of the period. Little Mermaid, Beauty and
> the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas (nice score shame about the
> film) etc. To the point where the stage version of Beauty and
> the Beast is now the second longest-running musical on
> Broadway, celebrating its tenth anniversary only a couple of
> months ago. While the effects from B&B can be considered
> impressive, it is actually the brilliant score that people
> remember.

Yes, however it is COMMERCIAL music, written for film, and being such wonderful films, of course they are going to make wonderful stage shows, especially with Disney and their squillions of dollars. Now, you were mentioning something about "bigger and brighter effects", "stunning costumes" and "brilliant production" and "who cares about the music anyway"....? ;-)

> With the Menken camp comes his Disney cohort Elton John.
> There are only two composers with more than one show running
> on Broadway at the moment: Menken (B&B and Little Shop of
> Horrors) and Elton John (The Lion King and Aida).

Well, Little Shop is closing soon and Aida would have to be one of the WORST scores I've ever heard. God knows why that is still running. And I have to say that The Lion King will die a death too once thats closed. The only thing keeping it running is its incredible staging, breathtaking sets, costumes... I'm having de ja vous. The music in the Lion King is quite interesting. It mixes gorgeous African chant with the tacky Elton John tunes. I must confess that I cringed when "I just can't wait to be King" started. BRING BACK THE AFRICAN MUSIC! Anyhoo....

> Funnily enough both Menken and John have worked with Lloyd
> WebberÂ’s original and best lyricist Tim Rice.
> Food for thought, maybe it is actually the lyricist that
> makes the show great and not the composer?

Yes, Chess, Starmania (or Tycoon) and Blondel were running successes all over the world. :-)

>IÂ’ve always said I
> thought Sondheim was a lyricist who writes his own music not
> a composer who writes his own wordsÂ…

Yes I agree, and he's brilliant at it too, despite the fact that a good deal of his music is quite unsingable to the average singer. Thank GOD that the general public don't destroy his music by singing it badly! Which is more than I can say for other people, including Lloyd Webber unfortunately.

> I hope in my rambling way I have managed to demonstrate some
> of the reasons why Lloyd Webber is considered so lowly by
> many. As I said, even many ALW haters will agree about the
> brilliance of the AL-W/Time Rice collaborations, but from
> there onÂ…

All I have to say is..... STILL RUNNING! ;-)

> HereÂ’s to hoping that the man still has a couple of GREAT
> musicals in him. His Variations and his Requiem will always
> be two of my favourite pieces of late twentieth century
> music, but a lot of his musicals do leave a lot to be desired.

Hmmm........ anyway, thank you for replying. Its nice to finally have a serious discussion about this subject. Anyone else?

WOW guys!
Thanks so much for your enthusiastic response to my forum topic! I do love Jesus Christ Superstar, having just finished a production of it and I see this forum as just another way to 're-live' the brilliance of this piece of theatre and the joy it brought to me while working on it and performing it. Can we please return to my original question people, coz we are getting a bit sidetracked!!! Lol. I am very interested to hear everyone's favourite Andrew Lloyd Webber musical and their favourite character and song from that show........
Thank you for the responses, they are excellent to read. Keep them coming!
Amy

Hello,

Simon wrote:

>And I have to say that The Lion King will die a death too once thatÂ’s >closed. The only thing keeping it running is its incredible staging, >breathtaking sets, costumes... I'm having de ja vous. The music in the >Lion King is quite interesting. It mixes gorgeous African chant with the >tacky Elton John tunes. I must confess that I cringed when "I just >can't wait to be King" started. BRING BACK THE AFRICAN MUSIC! >Anyhoo....

It's sad, but I have to say I agree with that a little. I flew to Sydney to see it, because it looked absolutely fantastic, all the costumes, the lighting, the set, the use of puppetry, you know, just really beautiful design work.

The opening, " The circle of life" was amazing, and I was thinking "this is going to one brilliant musical", and the African chant was great, but at the end of the first act I didn't really know what to think. I mean I do love the Elton John tunes, but some of the new stuff wasn't that good, for example the Hyena tune "Chow Down", it was like a rock and roll song, it didnÂ’t fit in with the rest of the show .

The song Nala sings where she tells her family that she has to leave, is a nice song, as were others. But the show did get kind of bad in the middle.

Not all the songs were good so I don't know if it would last being performed without ALL of itÂ’s beautiful design work. It was a good show, it was just a little disappointing thatÂ’s all.

laura

For anyone in perth, or to be more specific MIDNITE Youth, you know exactly what I am going to say....ASPECTS OF LOVE, and the best song from that is by far the mermaid song that Jenny sings!

I have to disagree with some of this. I am notoriously known by friends, colleagues and family members for being particularly picky when it comes to seeing performances. I have had over ten years of theatrical experience, and seen performances from all over the world (including the RSC in Stratford, etc etc, won't bore you with the list), and even though yes, some of the Lion King irked me, it was by no means the most annoying thing I've ever seen. In fact it's in my top ten list (which in fact only includes the top five, that's how few performances I actually rate as better than good).

It should also be noted, that this performance is spectacular if interested in puppets. They are all beautifully designed, operated and constructed.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a 'musical' as it incorporates to many other designs and styles from other areas of theatre (like the puppetry, the use of mechanics, dance and circus arts), and to judge it on one element is to miss a lot of the brilliance of ideas in its other elements.

na wrote:
>
> I have to disagree with some of this. I am notoriously known
> by friends, colleagues and family members for being
> particularly picky when it comes to seeing performances. I
> have had over ten years of theatrical experience, and seen
> performances from all over the world (including the RSC in
> Stratford, etc etc, won't bore you with the list), and even
> though yes, some of the Lion King irked me, it was by no
> means the most annoying thing I've ever seen. In fact it's in
> my top ten list (which in fact only includes the top five,
> that's how few performances I actually rate as better than
> good).
>
> It should also be noted, that this performance is spectacular
> if interested in puppets. They are all beautifully designed,
> operated and constructed.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't think this is a 'musical' as it
> incorporates to many other designs and styles from other
> areas of theatre (like the puppetry, the use of mechanics,
> dance and circus arts), and to judge it on one element is to
> miss a lot of the brilliance of ideas in its other elements.



I'll see your qualifications and raise you.
(Particularly picky, more than 16 years experience, seen performances all over the world, performed all over the world...etc)

I wish I hadn't gone in to see the Lion King with such high expectations. I'd been told some of the sequences would absolutely blow me away...unfortunately, having seen the few publicity grabs (and admittedly being fairly impressed by the puppets) the overall scale of these sequences didn't live up to the way they'd been depicted. Don't get me wrong, they were good...they just didn't blow me away.

My favourite parts were definitely the African music and large dance sequences. Simba's father appearing in the night sky was a gorgeous effect. Individual characters all suffered from comparison to the animated versions, but were enhanced by the visible-puppeteer aspect. I agree that 'Chow Down' was a strange addition, given that most people wouldn't recognise the lyrics, they were not delivered particularly clearly. But the mood and style suited fine, I didn't mind the rock aspect.

It may be relevant to know that I knew a lot about this show, having made several call-backs, including getting to wear one of the character puppets, but didn't eventually get chosen. I have every respect for the cast who have to operate these difficult puppets; but I have to say I'm not devastated by not being part of the show.


As to the nature of musicals, all the ones I can think of have involved copious dance, as well as circus arts and mechanical elements. A theatrical 'musical' isn't just judged by its music...especially the Disney or Cameron Macintosh type which are designed and choreographed identically around the world...it's all part of the same package. Yes, this one has puppets, but I wouldn't consider it any less of a musical.

Cheers,
Craig

hello,

I loved that bit where Simba's dad appeared in the stars!
That was done really well. I also liked the bit where Simba is running from the wild beasts, that whole set they brought out was really good in showing perspective.

Also about the puppets in musicals...........how great does Avenue Q look!! I really want to see this!!
I wish the new musicals would come to Australia so we could see them, rather then us just going on their website and flipping through their production photos! it just looks so interesting.

Wicked also looks like a good one to see.

laura

i have to say i completely agree,

perhaps it is the fact that we go to see a musical such as the lion king with such high expectations that makes it such a dissapointment when we are not transported to the "magical world of disney". i for one saw the west end production... hmm well dissapointed is a word i use only for lack of a better word, yes the costumes were fantastic, the puppetry and sets were amazing and yet after the first sequence they no longer held me in such rapture, admittedly there were some stand out performances but the story didnt work for the stage! maybe, just maybe it would have, had we not had the beautiful and sometimes breath-taking african music disrupted by the garish tunes of elton, (which WORKED in the film!). i definetly wouldnt recommend this show to anyone, what with such wonderful and brillantly staged musicals as Thoroughly Modern Millie just around the corner... only for the kids. (even then only for those enamoured with the movie)

darian

My favourite would have to be Phantom - the first musical I was ever introduced to. Mum had two CDs of ALW greatest songs, so I listened to them with relish.

It was only until later that I was introduced into the greatness of Gilbert and Sullivan

Sorry Amy O, I hereby declare a hijack of this thread, I have a animated eyebrows and I'm not afraid to use them!

Simon Holt wrote:
>
> I think the word you're looking for is commercialism.

he he... A friend just lent me the CD of Ruthless, and to quote one of the songs:
"And whether the show is a hit or a flop
They sell T-shirts and caps with their logo on top
So even though you hate the show
At least you can shop
At a Musical"


> Well actually, most of the time I knew the music before I saw
> the show - thanks to the isolation of Perth.

Amen! I think the last thing I saw that I hadn't heard ANY of the music for was The Peony Pavilion, the 18hr 16th Century Chinese opera that played at the Festival a few years back.
Which, by the way, is TOP of my list of Musical-slash-Opera experiences.
My personal top five:
1, The Peony Pavilion
2, Tristan und Isolde, Australian Opera
3, Les Troyens au Carthage, Australian Opera
4, The King & I, the professional one with Nyree Dawn Porter (who replaced Hayley Mills before it got to Perth)
5, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, with Tom Burlinson and Georgie Parker.

> :-p And I must
> say that he is very hummable. Most of Lloyd Webbers tunes go
> where you expect them to go, hence memorability.

Memorability? or predictability? How many times have you heard an ALW song for the first time and been able to sing along after a couple of bars because you know EXACTLY where he's going with it...

> Most of
> Sondheim doesn't do that. Yes, granted there are some tunes
> that do, but most don't. You can't tell me "Sunday in the
> Park with George" (the song) and "Into the Woods" (the song)
> and most of the Pacific Overtures score is hummable.

"A trickle of sweat
Right under the tit
The bustles slipping
Move your arm a bit.
Sunday in the Park with George!"

[sorry]


> I disagree. Aspects of Love and Sunset Boulevard are great
> scores as a whole despite the number of "hit songs" in them.

Oh I don't deny Aspects is a great score, all half an hour of it, which is then repeated ad infinitum...

> Ok, there are some crap songs in there too, eg. Every Movie's
> A Circus and his other two shows, Whistle Down the Wind and
> The Beautiful Game have more crap songs than good songs,
> however, most composers are guilty of that, classical and
> musical theatre. Just look at boring Brahms or some of
> Mozart, or Richard Rodgers, Claude-Michel Schoenberg and even
> the beloved Sondheim. They all have crap songs.

No... no... not Sondheim... tell me it isn't so! OK, so even my beloved Assassins has that REALLY bad Something Just Broke!

> *sigh* Thats not what I meant. I meant that the public
> majority were suddenly interested in musical theatre again.
> Not just the people interested in musicals and theatre.
> Everyone knows who he is. Can that be said of Sondheim
> (believe me, its true), Alan Menken, Stephen Schwartz, Jason
> Robert Brown, Charles Strouse, Jerry Bock and even Kander and
> Ebb? The public majority do not know who these people are,
> but they sure as hell have heard of Lloyd Webber. (I'm not
> dissing the above composers because I love them all - I'm
> just attempting to make a point. :-) Most people know their
> shows, not who they are.

Point admitted and accepted. As an opera buff, I know my composers. So, as a Musicals buff, I make sure that I keep tab on who wrote what, and then do the whole "Oh, I liked that, what else have they written..."
But then, I'm not a musicals geek, I am more of a musicals uber-geek.
But it does surprise me how many musical geeks I know who don't know their composers. Oh, yes, people know their ALWs and their R&Hs and their Sondheims, but when I mention Kander&Ebb or Menken or Herman or even Lerner&Loewe I am often met with glazed looks.
I know so many people who love Little Shop and B&B who didn't realise that they were written by the same team!
And then people who are not musical geeks who think that Les Miz, Miss Saigon and Bombay dreams are ALWs.

The funny thing is I know more people who recognise names like Bob Fosse and Twyla Tharp than they do composers names...
Go figure!

> I think that is across the arts really. How often to people
> see straight plays now? Or local theatre in general? Or shows
> without big star names? I think the price of tickets has come
> into the "stoppage" of seeing theatre. But I'll let that
> point slide at the moment. See my other posts. :-)

Once again, Amen!

> See the above comment about "death". I'm not denying
> anything. Have you noticed that all bar a Lloyd Webber show
> (Evita) are American? Perhaps I should have mentioned earlier
> that my viewpoint of Lloyd Webbers impact on musical theatre
> is on _British_ musical theatre scene, not Broadway.

Oh... the British Musical Scene!
You should have said...
Someone (was it Brahms?) called England the land without music.
It really seems that they are incapable of sustaining more than one theatre composer of any lasting note at any one time.
Purcell, Sullivan, Britten, ALW.
Some of the great pieces of English theatre music actually aren't.
Messiah - German!
Les Miz - French!
Even the Master of the Queen's Music is currently an Australian!

> Yes. And how often do these get performed? Art, yes, but
> intellectually or musically accessible to the common man? No.

Accessible to the common man? No!
Accessible to the common THINKING man? Very much so.
Some people like to just be entertained, other people need a bit more.
McDonalds is fine, but occassionally you need to have something a bit more... tasty?

> Well, I don't particularly like it. I think its too complex
> for its own good. Its not particularly "entertaing" either -
> no big dance numbers. He he... And I don't see Sunday being
> revived too often.

I think the reason that Sunday isn't performed here is bcause people are 1, afraid of the complexity of the score and 2, afraid of the complexity of the staging. But this is people afraid to put it on, not people afraid to see it!
This is also I think why Sondheim is not done that often, it is a major challenge to perform.
"Every year at programming time, what do we say? Next year Sondheim" [apologies to Fiddler]

> Ditto about the "art" factor.

Assassins at the moment is one of the most frequently performed Sondheims in Perth, once at the Quarry, once at Playlovers and once at WAAPA, and thats within the last ten years. It has actually developed quite a following in the rest of the world. In many ways its the Michael Moore of musicals :-)

> Yes, however it is COMMERCIAL music, written for film, and
> being such wonderful films, of course they are going to make
> wonderful stage shows, especially with Disney and their
> squillions of dollars. Now, you were mentioning something
> about "bigger and brighter effects", "stunning costumes" and
> "brilliant production" and "who cares about the music
> anyway"....? ;-)

But the thing with Menken is that people DONT go to see the effects, they DO go to hear the music. Besides commercial doesn't mean not quality. What is the most popular musical written in the last couple of years? In most recent surveys there is only one new musical that pops up in the top twenty most loved musicals of all time... Once More with Feeling, the Buffy Musical. I kid you not. And it is a truly great piece of musical writing.

> Well, Little Shop is closing soon and Aida would have to be
> one of the WORST scores I've ever heard. God knows why that
> is still running. And I have to say that The Lion King will
> die a death too once thats closed. The only thing keeping it
> running is its incredible staging, breathtaking sets,
> costumes... I'm having de ja vous. The music in the Lion King
> is quite interesting. It mixes gorgeous African chant with
> the tacky Elton John tunes. I must confess that I cringed
> when "I just can't wait to be King" started. BRING BACK THE
> AFRICAN MUSIC! Anyhoo....

Okay, okay, so I glossed over that bit of info. BTW Aida is closing sooner than Little Shop. And lets be honest here, who is the star creator of Lion King? Its actually Julie Taymor not Elton John...

> Yes, Chess, Starmania (or Tycoon) and Blondel were running
> successes all over the world. :-)

Oh come on, Chess is a bit of a sleeper hit...
As to the other two: A lyricist can make a good musical great, but theres nothing a lyricist can do to make a dog of a score anything but a dog of a score.

> Yes I agree, and he's brilliant at it too, despite the fact
> that a good deal of his music is quite unsingable to the
> average singer. Thank GOD that the general public don't
> destroy his music by singing it badly! Which is more than I
> can say for other people, including Lloyd Webber unfortunately.

Sondheim unsingable to the average singer? Hooray!
I once read that you should NEVER audition with a Sondheim song, because he may display your good points but he doesn't hide your bad points either.

> All I have to say is..... STILL RUNNING! ;-)

But they're just pussy-cat people singing in a garbage dump ;-P

> Hmmm........ anyway, thank you for replying. Its nice to
> finally have a serious discussion about this subject. Anyone
> else?

And yet again, AMEN!
So Simon, who is YOUR favourite composer.

Paul Treasure droned on:

:o)~


> Oh I don't deny Aspects is a great score, all half an hour of
> it, which is then repeated ad infinitum...


Evita. Phantom.


> my beloved Assassins has that REALLY bad Something Just Broke!


Written as an afterthought for the London production; totally out of context with the major theme of the show as a whole; BUT... (*sigh of relief*)... eminently cut-able.


> It really seems that they are incapable of sustaining more
> than one theatre composer of any lasting note at any one time.
> Purcell, Sullivan, Britten, ALW.


Savvy choice of words there, PT... "of any lasting note". I, for one, regard Purcell and Britten as the only two names mentioned above that are worth including in a list of notable British composers. It has nothing to do with the boring old opera vs musicals chestnut - I'm not _that_ much of a snob; but rather to do with overall quality. I personally find ALW derivative and overly repetitive (Cats and JCS excepted), and Sullivan deathly dull.

(The longevity of G&S I find utterly incomprehensible.)


> I think the reason that Sunday isn't performed here is bcause
> people are 1, afraid of the complexity of the score and 2,
> afraid of the complexity of the staging. But this is people
> afraid to put it on, not people afraid to see it!
> This is also I think why Sondheim is not done that often, it
> is a major challenge to perform.


Amen. I wish producers would start being a little more honest with themselves about what they stage, not to mention a little more respectful of the audience. I often wonder how legitimate it is to respond to declining attendances by running with proven chestnuts. I think an obscure piece - any piece! - staged with love and a genuine desire to communicate and entertain, with committed performers sourced specifically for a commitment to the aforementioned, will always trounce a by-the-numbers rehash of a war-horse. People will always - always - respond to quality.

This is one of the problems with programming by committee... you're more often than not forced to consort with persons incapable of recognising that box office is not the only marker of success.


> Assassins at the moment is one of the most frequently
> performed Sondheims in Perth, once at the Quarry, once at
> Playlovers and once at WAAPA, and thats within the last ten
> years. It has actually developed quite a following in the
> rest of the world. In many ways its the Michael Moore of
> musicals :-)


Which goes to the heart of my point. A musical that delves into the mind-set of murderers and psychopaths, attempting to extract a moral justification for acts of regicide, is a sure thing for commercial failure, right? Wrong.

There's no telling what people might find appealing this week. If it's made with love, and that love shines through, audiences will respond. You might lose some of your more conservative audiences who don't want to hear Lee Harvey Oswald sing (not that he sings much - it's only one line), but hey, who might you attract in their stead?


> In most recent surveys
> there is only one new musical that pops up in the top twenty
> most loved musicals of all time... Once More with Feeling,
> the Buffy Musical. I kid you not. And it is a truly great
> piece of musical writing.


As opposed to the Highlander opera, which is so bad that - to my knowledge - it has yet to be produced on the stage.


>> I must confess that I cringed
> > when "I just can't wait to be King" started. BRING BACK THE
> > AFRICAN MUSIC! Anyhoo....


Though in the Australian production, Simon, that had a lot to do with the quality of the singing. The lady who played Rafiiki was a knock-out, and the boy who played Young Simba (the night I attended) was very weak vocally.


> Oh come on, Chess is a bit of a sleeper hit...


But it's been dated, thematically speaking, for a very long time. The music is solid, IMHO, but it couldn't be staged today, unless it was re-written to a Middle-Eastern context, perhaps.

When a commercial producer tried to revive "Chess" in Melbourne in 1997, it flopped badly, and I remember that shortly afterwards I was appearing in a production of Kurt Weill's "Happy End", at which an audience member told many of us that it shat on "Chess" for political comment. Go figure.


> I once read that you should NEVER audition with a Sondheim
> song, because he may display your good points but he doesn't
> hide your bad points either.


It's also a bitch for the accompanist.



dm.

Hi guys relative newbie here.. in reply to the previous posts my $0.02.. (not really following the argument but anyway some random thoughts)

> >LetÂ’s be honest hereÂ… do you
> > really come out of a Lloyd Webber humming the tunes? Or do
> > you come out humming the scenery? I know thatÂ’s what I did
> > with Phantom.

That's a common knee-jerk reaction to ALW's stuff. Sales of the Phantom cast album are still going strong, and JCS and Evita started out life as concept albums, so obviously the music must have something to do with it. And then the argument that naturally follows its that some people just like crappy sappy stuff, but thats another point altogether...


> *sigh* Thats not what I meant. I meant that the public
> majority were suddenly interested in musical theatre again.
> Not just the people interested in musicals and theatre.
> Everyone knows who he is. Can that be said of Sondheim
> (believe me, its true), Alan Menken, Stephen Schwartz, Jason
> Robert Brown, Charles Strouse, Jerry Bock and even Kander and
> Ebb? The public majority do not know who these people are,
> but they sure as hell have heard of Lloyd Webber.

Sadly that's probably ALW's biggest problem. I mean Phantom 9and I think Cats as well) has made more money than Titanic. He's gotten far too big and well, in many circles far too mainstream, for his own good. Not that being mainstream is a problem in itself but it certianly seems to be so for theatre snobs and critics. Phantom has been parodied to death, Memory has been done to death and while it probably was a pretty song in its day 20 years on it's very, very hard to listen to it with fresh ears. And because his most well known (not neccessarily most popular) stuff is so overplayed (and badly sung in hotel bars), it becomes, even if it didnt start of that way, elevator music. And because those songs are his most famous there's the assumption that they are also his best, which, well, sounds crap enough as it is. And btw I cant stand people who slam the empty melodrama of Dont Cry For Me Argentina, not realising that in the context of the show that was the whole point..


> >But during the eighties and nineties people stopped seeing
> musicals >unless they were
> > bigger and brighter with more effects and stunning costumes
> > and who really cares about the music anyway!

Well I suppose if you can give the audience a "total experience", why not? I dont think the effects hide a weak score, rather they enhance the whole thing. Live musical theatre is a visual thing as much as it is an aural thing. And if it encourages people to go into the theatre why not? Although i guess the only concern will be in terms of visuals it's raised the bar so that every other musical will have to be a multimillion dollar production. But as for those, regular musical theatre fans will buy tickets anyway, spectacular scenery or not. And its precisely shows like Phantom that are creating a new generation of musical theatregoers. Its very strange how critics and theatre people keep complaining that people arent interested in musicals, and then when these shows come about and people start getting interested, they slam em for pandering to the public. Sigh.
Anyway someone asked about the Woman In White. It's opening in September (cant remember when) at the Palace Theatre, les Miz's former home. If you go to the forum at the tiretracks.co.uk there's an article on the Show from the Times.

THANK YOU JULIANNE FOR ACTUALLY ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why are we all getting side-tracked?!?!!! Silly people..........:)

I have to start by saying after working on Disney's The Lion King for the past 18 months some of you have it all wrong...

How can you not call it a musical? what is Starlight Express then if The Lion King is not a musical.

i think you are all missing the point...

The Lion king is an amazing piece of theatre. I Think people are expecting way to much these days. It is not realistic to have major set changes and amazing sets in every show. I love the mininmalist approach to the show and the nature of the scene changes.

I beleive that Julie Taymor's Direction, Costume &Puppet designs, and lyrics in The Lion King is amazing. Remembering that this was and is a animated film.

I would like to challenge any one else to transfer it to a muscial and see how they go...

Yes the africian chants by Lebo M and Hanns Zimmer are amazing as for the Elton John and Tim Rice stuff it comes with the story and is fundermential to the story.

I must also say it has been an amazing experience. To meet and work with show amazing people and share there passion for the show.

I also must add what show has been in sydney recentaly that has been selling at 101% since it opened 11 months ago.

I would recommend this is any one. It is an amazing piece of MUSICAL Theatre.

D

D wrote:
>
> I also must add what show has been in sydney recentaly that
> has been selling at 101% since it opened 11 months ago.

And yet despite this, when at least one of the principals recently asked for a pay rise (after spending the last eleven months earning the same wage as an ensemble member, and less than some of the other principals), he was told that the show wasn't selling well enough for them to afford it.

Slightly OT, given how the thread started, but food for thought nonetheless.

OH MY GOSH cats is liek my most favoutire musical ever my fav songs are macavity and i luv rum tum tugger !!!!

cheers
Caitlin

Thanks 4 your input Caitlin! Cute 2 hear! Amy O

I AM TRYING TO LOCATE A PICTURE VIDEO (NOT THE MUSIC) OF THE ORIGINAL BROADWAY PLAY OF EVITA WITH PATTY LAPONE. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I CAN PURCHASE A PICTURE VIDEO OF THE ORIGINAL?

Cats is a joke its the worst musical ever written

MJ said "cats is the worst musical ever written"

actually south pacific is the worst musical ever written!

but thats just my opinion...

i think that a lot of people dont like cats because its not really a standard musical is it... lets be honest, the story line could use a lot of work, the music is a little repetitive (memory is reprised how many times!) but the sets and the costumes and individual numbers make it a pretty entertaining piece...

so getting back to my point (do i have one???) cats is a bit of fluff theatre, you dont really go away with much do you... i mean the message is what "a cats a cat a dog's a dog"...? uh-huh. anyway i think as long as you can appreciate it for what it is you can understand the hype, i mean its got some pretty spectacular dance sequences and yes i do love "memory"... you gotta respect that it appeals to alot of people because its visually entertaining but you arent really going to get the same experience as you would with a sondheim, hey we cant all love mudering barbers and the like now can we...?

thoughts of a simple fool!

joy_kk06@yahoo.fr
FROM:joy KABILA
Tel:00225 07 41 24 61.
Abidjan,Cote d'Ivoire

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Though I have not meet with you before but I believe,
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There is this huge amount of Eigtheen million
U.S dollars($18,000,000.00) which my late Husband
kept for us in a security company here in Abidjan, (Cote D'Ivoire) before he was assasinated by his body guard.Now I and my son Mack decided to invest these money in your country or anywhere safe enough outside Africa for security and political reasons.We want you to help us claim and retrieve these fund from the security company here and transfer it into your personal account in your country for investment purposes on these areas:

1). Telecommunication
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If you can be of an assistance to us we will
be pleased to offer to you 10% Of the total fund.

PLEASE REPLY ME WITH THIS EMAIL BOX/ joy_kk06@yahoo.fr

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Respectfully yours,

Mrs. joy Kabila

Wow,
I was going through all these messages as my Mum is in Sydney at the moment and she wants to see the Lion King. Anyway, I was quite amazed at your email - although I don't quite understand it and It probably wasn't ment for me but good luck and be careful. You might try buying shares in Telstra (telecomunications) and the Shangri-La (5 star hotels) seem to be popping up lately, so that may be of interest. I am not sure of transport but as I said, Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.
Kindest Regards,
Michele

*groan*

which just goes to prove there's one born....

;-)

Michelle and anyone else tempted by "Joy's" mail, this is a SCAM. The notorious "Nigerian" scam. So notorious our federal guvmint has nearly 300 webpages dedicated to warning people about "Joy" and her fellow scammers.

http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/amazing_offers/frauds.asp

If it sounds too good to be true....

Cheers
Grant

[%sig%]

Have to agree that the best song in JCS is Gethsemene. Seen it on stange about 10 times, and will do it again! Guy who played Judas in Local production last year was killed in a car crash, and Judas was played by a WOMAN! Very well, too, under the circumstances.

If i find out, I will let you know. Spanky101