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Words of mouth

Mon, 29 Oct 2012, 06:03 pm
Johnny Grim29 posts in thread
Logging on this site today for my daily look see, I see yet another crtically acclaimed show alomost pleading with people to come see. Having had our own share of disappointing audiences, one is left to wonder why people don't come along, especially when the show is publically acclaimed. To that end, I did a little survey of those folk who take the trouble to email / facebook or text their congratulations (thankfully there was enough to make the survey viable.) Having received their praise for the show, I asked them the following questions. 1: Having seen and enjoyed the show, had they taken the trouble to recommend the production to others? ANS: NINE out of eleven, confessed they hadn't. 2: I asked if that they'd seen a 'professional' production at Burswood or the Heath Ledger Theatre would they be likely to tell others of it? ANS: EIGHT out of the eleven confessed they probably would. My conclusions to the above are: A: Theatre patrons being the lavish lot we are, love to name drop..'Oh yes, I was at the Heath Ledger the other day, saw a marvellous show blah blah blah...' B: We 'Non professional' / Community / Independent Theatre Groups are possibly seen as the poor relation, or in such a good financial state we don't require bums on seats. Fascinating really. Even more fascinating in my case, when the people interviewed, know how we operate (trust me, there's no skin left on my teeth.) Surely, the question must beg, (and I've dared to touch on this before) is what can we do collectively (going it alone to me would seem to be a tiny voice in the wilderness) to have people 'Amway' our shows in the same way they would ANNIE or THE JERSEY BOYS...? I know there's no magic wand, our own fairy has been waving her wand so enthusiastically this past two weeks the poor love has put in a claim for RSI... Footnote: In several conversations with theatre people this week, audience numbers were touched upon, and sadly there was a general (almost accepted) view that audiences are dwindling, particulary for, dare I say original /lesser known productions. As a theatre lover, I have trouble with accepting our future demise (not for me of course but for those youngsters who share the same passion.) Perhaps we need employ a guru. Position vacant. Theatre Resource Technical Solution Forecasting Administrator Not a bad title really, I'd love to drop that one next time I'm at the 'Ledge.' The up the road from the Mersey boy

Thread (29 posts)

Johnny GrimMon, 29 Oct 2012, 06:03 pm
Logging on this site today for my daily look see, I see yet another crtically acclaimed show alomost pleading with people to come see. Having had our own share of disappointing audiences, one is left to wonder why people don't come along, especially when the show is publically acclaimed. To that end, I did a little survey of those folk who take the trouble to email / facebook or text their congratulations (thankfully there was enough to make the survey viable.) Having received their praise for the show, I asked them the following questions. 1: Having seen and enjoyed the show, had they taken the trouble to recommend the production to others? ANS: NINE out of eleven, confessed they hadn't. 2: I asked if that they'd seen a 'professional' production at Burswood or the Heath Ledger Theatre would they be likely to tell others of it? ANS: EIGHT out of the eleven confessed they probably would. My conclusions to the above are: A: Theatre patrons being the lavish lot we are, love to name drop..'Oh yes, I was at the Heath Ledger the other day, saw a marvellous show blah blah blah...' B: We 'Non professional' / Community / Independent Theatre Groups are possibly seen as the poor relation, or in such a good financial state we don't require bums on seats. Fascinating really. Even more fascinating in my case, when the people interviewed, know how we operate (trust me, there's no skin left on my teeth.) Surely, the question must beg, (and I've dared to touch on this before) is what can we do collectively (going it alone to me would seem to be a tiny voice in the wilderness) to have people 'Amway' our shows in the same way they would ANNIE or THE JERSEY BOYS...? I know there's no magic wand, our own fairy has been waving her wand so enthusiastically this past two weeks the poor love has put in a claim for RSI... Footnote: In several conversations with theatre people this week, audience numbers were touched upon, and sadly there was a general (almost accepted) view that audiences are dwindling, particulary for, dare I say original /lesser known productions. As a theatre lover, I have trouble with accepting our future demise (not for me of course but for those youngsters who share the same passion.) Perhaps we need employ a guru. Position vacant. Theatre Resource Technical Solution Forecasting Administrator Not a bad title really, I'd love to drop that one next time I'm at the 'Ledge.' The up the road from the Mersey boy
LabrugMon, 29 Oct 2012, 06:28 pm

Distance

Personally, I feel we need to distance ourselves from the current perceptions that Community Theatre equates to Am Theatre which equates to Lower Quality show.

How we do that exactly I am note entirely certain but I would suggest one way is we redefine ourselves by using terms like Independent Theatre.

I am proud to be a part of Community Theatre, but if a change of image will help improve turnover, then I am all for that too.

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Johnny GrimMon, 29 Oct 2012, 08:18 pm

I'm in favour

I said on here some time ago, that, the term 'Community Theatre' has for some, an almost Salvation Army suggestion, and if we look at that organisation, one can se ehow they are rapdily changing the way they look ad do business to make themselves relevant in today's world... PS: If we are honest, the communities as such, are based on the individual theatre's own comminity, rather than a group of theatre's, which stands to reason. PPS: I encourage the young people to speak on this matter, for the future of theatre will be in their hands.. cheers Johnny Grim
class act theatreThu, 1 Nov 2012, 10:15 am

We have even more trouble

We have even more trouble as an independent professional theatre company - as we fit nowhere. People are RAVING about the quality of the direction and performances in Ghosts, but audiences are remain tiny and we will be losing $20,000 on this production. At least the Community Theatres have a loyal following of patrons! For example, I hear the show at the Old Mill is already at 95% capacity! Half their luck...
Walter PlingeThu, 1 Nov 2012, 10:55 am

The show at the Old Mill is

The show at the Old Mill is actually an independent production, not an Old Mill show. Your direction and performances may be great but I've always found Ghosts as boring as bat guano. You can have the best direction and actors in the world but if it's a show people just aren't interested in, you're pushing the proverbial uphill.
class act theatreThu, 1 Nov 2012, 11:02 am

That's just it, when it is

That's just it, when it is done right, it is NOT boring!
LabrugThu, 1 Nov 2012, 11:43 am

Thinking further

Something further to my earlier comment, and in combination with it, I feel the whole matter is about exposure, and the previous comments re: Ghosts is a good example.

  1. Firstly, there is exposure in terms of who were are - Amateur, Independent, Fringe, Professional
  2. Then there is exposure in terms of actual promotion. The amount of promotion required is impacted on the image as presented in 1.
  3. Finally there is pre-exposure of the show in particular. Previous bad productions may impact on both the theatre in question or further attempts by other companies to present said show.

3 has had a previous impact on 1 which in turn makes 2 that much harder, which is also affected by 3. If you can break through the barriers with 2, then regardless of the quality of the show or the reputation of the theatre, you get your audience. A returning audience will of course, through word of mouth, be affected by the enjoyment of the audience, which may or may not have anything to do with the level of technical effort of the production, and we have a flow on effect for 3.

I am simplifying this of course as there are far more factors than this, but essentially the point I am trying to make is in general, exposure is a big portion of any production. What makes this harder is when those whom have the capacity to provide quality and high volume exposure are reluctant to, for what-ever-reason, then we are left to flounder somewhat.

We have a few dedicated members of our theatrical community that work bloody hard trying to promote shows. Some do it for a fee and others do what they can. However, when you can't hit those high volume markets, it is an uphill battle.

Social Media is certainly helping in some aspects to get the word out. What I find is that there is a still a massive amount of blissful ignorance as to the existence of this "cultural underground". Some have cited the oft used "Sporting Mindset" as the blame for audience apathy. I am not so sure that is the main culprit as any community has its sporting fraternity, yet theatre can still thrive.

To my mind, it is the perception (or exposure) that Theatre in general is not looked upon with the same esteem as seen in other countries, and I think part of that is, as a community in general, we do not take ourselves seriously. We are not Amateurs by the modern day definition. We are lovers of theater trying to provide quality theatre where-ever we can. We need to change our identity and that begins with us.

The opinions of a man wearing a hat.

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Walter PlingeThu, 1 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

Ah, but give a dog a bad

Ah, but give a dog a bad name...
LogosThu, 1 Nov 2012, 02:40 pm

Hmmm

I do new work. That makes it hard to promote anytime. In that I'm like Johnny. In fact next year I intend to do one of his plays in Adelaide. (Johnny I've already got 3 out of the 4 women.) My recent play Snakes and Ladders got an average audience of 12 in a theatre seating 120. I find it difficlut to promote anyway. I put it out there on the social media and invite my 300 or so friends and ask them to pass it on and they don't. The number I invite stays the same throughout. I see yet another production of ... lets say ... The Importance of Being Earnest end up with an invitation list in the thousands. Its not as though I'm the new kid on the block. I've been around for an eternity. I work with some very good and respected actors from the community and independant worlds and people do come to see them. The Theatre Community largely stays away from my shows. If I ask why? I get, too busy, I was working on another show, I was washing my hair, well you get the point. We shouldn't of course rely on other theatre people to come, they are busy making theatre. I and my company sit very uncomfortably between Independant and Community. We are neither one nor the other, we are self funded and work as co op but I do use people from the amateur world. I also find it incredibly difficlut to get reviews. I must have upset people sometime. I am very afraid that we are on the slippery slope to the death of theatre, at least non musical drama. When I was at Uni training for this "career" I remember being told that during difficult times, war, depression etc People don't go to straight theatre but go to the spectacles, the musicals and the comedies. This doesn't really explain Brechts success in post war Germany but it has a ring of truth. Incidently I also remember being told that in a Census a few ago (I think about 1986) a question was asked about leisure activity and nearly twice as many people said they had been to a live performance of music or theatre in the previous week as said that they had been to a sports event. I suspect that this would not be true today. I also think I wandered all over the place in this post. I'm feeling a bit depreesed about theatre at the moment. Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au www.moorebooks.net.au
Gordon the OptomThu, 1 Nov 2012, 04:35 pm

Where have all the flowers gone?

My heart really goes out to some of the acting groups around Perth and the horrendous bills left after putting on a show.

As Walter Plinge said about ‘Ghosts’, in the past it has been heavy going and boring. The latest production really put life into it, clarified the relationships and characters; for the first time, the whole production was most satisfying. I paid $29 for a ticket and thought it well worth it; however, one gets a little peed off when the tickets are reduced to $19 later in the season, although I can understand the producer’s logic – and desperation. I understand that this is a school text, perhaps instead of hiring a theatre, a larger audience could be reached by actually going to several schools. There was only a small set and few props to deal with. The lighting could be tricky, but many schools now have decent rigs. $10 a ticket and free venue must be more attractive.

As you may gather I get out on a regular basis, and few venues are correctly heated, have even semi-comfortable seating and the correct rake, so one does not need to spend all night looking around the person in front – hence I live in the front row.

A raffle ticket ($2), a programme ($2), a cup of coffee in the interval ($3) and parking often $5 and regularly $8 – 10, adds another $15-20 to the ticket price.

The choice of the play is vitally important. One theatre recently had ‘Virginia Woolf’ on, it could have been the best production this year, but the thought of seeing this – or even worse another version of ‘The importance of being earnest’ - and I would rather die.

There are nights, usually Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday when there is no show on anywhere in Perth. At the ends of the week, there can be several shows all on at once. Imagine going to Melbourne and there is no theatre show to see, there is always a reasonable choice.

Then there are the lean periods when every excuse in the book has been used –

‘it is a quiet time of the year’ - are there really times when no one is interested in a night out at the cinema, quiz night or theatre for weeks on end?

‘No one comes after Easter’ – they won’t if there is nothing on.

‘We had a play on last month and it takes four weeks to bump out and get the next show going’ – then why don’t Community Theatres have two teams or ‘companies’ within their setup?

Very few theatres send me a ‘general public’ email circular about their shows. I often have to search their websites. If you have a list of regulars, then send an email – they are free to post out. Websites? Wow, some have not been up dated for months; one is still, showing what is ‘coming up in March ’12’.

‘The audiences have dropped off’ - with a play in each theatre about every two months, the habit of going to see the plays drops off.

Young people never even consider going to the theatre, after all ‘where is it?’, ‘boring’, ‘it is usually closed’ and ‘we have never met anyone who has been’. One group north of the river had a different children’s group of dancers and singers in their pantomime each night, so naturally the proud parents and grannies rushed from all over – a full house each night, just to see little Johnnie.

Hall hire cost is totally ridiculous. If the theatres, community or professional were used every week the charges would drop dramatically. If a restaurant opened 15% of the time, imagine the price of a meal.

As a Consumers’ Magazine has said recently, the ticketing services are amongst Australia’s the worst businesses. Thankfully, many theatres are now fitting their own booking systems.

Reviewing plays? The director can write a review – ready for publishing - and send it along with a photo, to each of the local newspapers who will happily print it. Alternatively, you could write a review for a friend’s play and then ask them to return the compliment for yours.

Finally give the punters what they want, and occasionally slip in a quality classic. Make sure that the welcome is warm and that the venue is worth the entry fee. Even if a show is wonderful but the place a dump, the public may not come back. The producer or director should mingle in the interval – without speaking, just listening – or at the end, stand outside the door or in the car park and listen to the real feelings about the show.

To all the theatre groups who work so hard for no return, a very many thanks.

Johnny GrimThu, 1 Nov 2012, 06:22 pm

Ye Gads!

And here's me quibbling about losing a few grand... in terms of the Old Mill sell out...you can't really go wrong with doing a British sit com, no offence to those doing so...it's the very thing my freinds plead with me to do...sadly, I have a desire to walk one step forward and three back with my own stuff...a Kamikaze business plan if ever there was one...ha!
Johnny GrimThu, 1 Nov 2012, 06:45 pm

Teamwork

Two teams in the one venue, now there's an idea! Let's aim to have our theatre's open all hours...surely in terms of people attraction / retention it may be worth a try? Gazing on from the outer, the community theatre's seem to be faring better than we independents (I rarely see them having the need to cajole people with cheap tickets etc.) Interestingly, advice given to me over the years has been to submit my plays to local theatre's. God bless the late Mr Hywel Williams for he nagged me incessantly to do so...finally I did so, and da da! Four submissions for four rejections... now, I don't take offence, for beauty or bums on seats is entrely in the eye of the beholder...but what is one left to do? PS: Wanted: Magic wand. New or average condition.
Walter PlingeFri, 2 Nov 2012, 08:02 am

It's very unlikely a local

It's very unlikely a local newspaper will publish a play review if you send it to them. A press release with details about the show, before it opens, however, is another matter.
jeffhansenFri, 2 Nov 2012, 08:12 am

Some local newspapers seem

Some local newspapers seem quite happy to print copy that they don't actually have to do any work to prepare, though I've never seen a review. If they've got a spot to fill, and you provide timely copy... www.meltheco.org.au
class act theatreFri, 2 Nov 2012, 08:16 am

Hi Gordon - we only reduced

Hi Gordon - we only reduced SOME tickets to $19 on 2 nights only, because we only had 5 people in the audience on each of those nights. With a very hard slog, we were able to get 30 in each night after this offer. You were also offered comps,remember? But we appreciate you paying for your ticket! We have to pay the staff wages at every show, and what we have taken each night, won't even cover that. Also, the schools weren't very interested either - with only 3 or 4 VERY small groups coming along. Class Act Theatre does not only provide theatre for school audiences, but also for the GP as well. We also financially support 2 other companies.
Walter PlingeFri, 2 Nov 2012, 09:47 am

Yes, happy to print copy.

Yes, happy to print copy. Just not reviews as Gordon was claiming.
Gordon the OptomFri, 2 Nov 2012, 11:24 am

tickets

I certainly wasn't having a go at you Angelique, your company has always been kind enough to offer a comp, but because of your financial situation I never take them. The box office charging me a booking fee to buy a ticket when I am standing there annoys me.

I can understand you wanting to cut the price and I am glad you get folk in, but many people may well wait until the reduction may be made. The two for one offer that some companies make are always worth waiting for. I just wonder if it is better to hit a lower price initially?

Keep up the good work. This show was one of your best.

 

LabrugFri, 2 Nov 2012, 11:39 am

What about Grading

Graded Seating? Charge higher for the front two row and grade it down as you go back?

Absit invidia (and DFT :nono:)

Jeff Watkins

Bass GuyFri, 2 Nov 2012, 12:59 pm

On that train of thought...

...how about putting a premium price on the last week? That's when everyone waits to see if the show is any good, before rocking up in the death-throes of the season. Make the early dates cheap and deliberately make the last week expensive. You'll get the skinflints (like me) and the impecunious (also like me) in early to spread the word. And then those who like the prestige element (and such creatures do exist) will still come for the last night. Win win, as far as I can see. El
LogosFri, 2 Nov 2012, 02:07 pm

What a good idea

Is that all there is? Well if that's all there is my friend, then let's keep dancing. www.tonymoore.id.au www.moorebooks.net.au
NormaFri, 2 Nov 2012, 03:05 pm

On that train of thought

AQ good ideae Eliot! I did suggest this some years ago to another theatre (not Old Mill)that we do this and the suggestion was not well received- i can understand the reasons why tho but maybe it's worth re-visiting! the "reduced price" did prompt me to book ticket for Ghosts, and I'm glad I did so, I'm not an Ibsen fan so I probably wouldn't have gone but for that- which would have been my loss for it was excellant. 40-50 there last night. Ibsen certainly is not a 'crowd-pleaser (Melville put on Hedda Gaebler recently and while I wouldn't say that audiences were poor- they certainly were not overwhelming!) Seems to me that we're damned if we do and equally damned if we don't!!
NormaFri, 2 Nov 2012, 03:18 pm

Where have all the flowers gone?

Sorry you didn't see Virginia Woolf Gordon, after a slow start it had what I am hesitant to classify as 'rave reviews (declare an interest here) extremely positive ones- even from those loyal audience members who come to everything but were hesitan on this one. .

Re putting on a production on Monday-Tuesday and even Wednesday..... we tried that with Beast & The Beauty- might as well have not bothered with Tuesday, Wednesday a bit better- waiting list for Friday and Saturday each week!!!

We are persevering with a Wednesday show for each seaon and it's very very slowly gaining ground. bit like sunday Matinees which are now pretty popula, but they took nearly a year to improve!

As to the "type of play' I don't think that the producers of Open All Hours are going to be left in the red!! What does that tell us all??

class act theatreFri, 2 Nov 2012, 03:37 pm

I can't BELIEVE they even

I can't BELIEVE they even charge a booking fee when you come to the door now!! When did that change?? You ,see this is the problem - the venues (what's left of them) available to a company like mine are VERY expensive and we are locked into using their ticketing services, too. Do you know they take $4.50 from a $19 ticket on our side as well?? I am seriously thinking of packing up Class Act and moving it to Melbourne, where the Arts are more appreciated!
Walter PlingeFri, 2 Nov 2012, 05:04 pm

It's not that the arts

It's not that the arts appreciated here. It's that Ogdens have a fucking strangle hold on everything. Thankfully the tide may be changing.
Walter PlingeSat, 3 Nov 2012, 11:24 am

Ticket sales

Class Act: No please do not leave Perth, what you do for the schools and young people cannot be easily replaced in this City I respect what you do and would rather send you $100 each season than sit through Ibsen,Checkhov,Ben Johnson, Wilde, some of the Shakespeare pantheon and,lord love us, some of the ancient Greeks. And yes that is a firm offer! I suspect a modern audience would as soon see Ibsen as applaud their dentist after a particularly bloody root canal with no anaesthetic.But have you tapped their support, not their viewing habits? There is no point in berating an audience that doesn't get it, and, furthermore, does not want to. These relic plays are now in the category of "actors plays" and Directorial vanity whatever their message or how relevant to today's society. Whatever my personal admiration for the fine actors and crew of Class Act, Ibsen and the like are the actors prize for performing the light entertainment and glitter that does get an audience. Dear Johnny, love ya, come on. You can't write plays for a cast of hundreds and neglect the marketing side. You've lost enough moola to maybe think of a change of business model? Flogging tickets at the door for an underpublicised event does not work unless, like the latest at Mill Point, you have done the market research, sorted out the demographic and got a damn good mailing list. Flogging tickets to other unemployed actors on facebook or these esteemed pages is hardly a passport to paradise. Yes I will help you where I can...horses, water, drinking...you have my email. Amateur Dramaticks have a long and proud tradition, changing their name just confuses the purpose. Amateur is unpaid, driven for the love of it Many professionals and those of a high standard 'do' amateur theatre. If you are involved in amateur theatre be proud of it, be proud of the errors the fun the teamwork. If you are an aspiring professional then use it for experience then try and work for a good pro outfit like Class Act and maybe get a chance to go further. We live in evolving world and entertainment habits are changing more rapidly still. "Amdram" will have a place if the time and energy is spent recreating itself and its audiences and keeping up with the marketing changes.
Johnny GrimSat, 3 Nov 2012, 12:11 pm

Point in case

Dear Walter, I would agree ALIS do need a different busines model, but given we're on our umpteenth version already. One must remember that advertising budgets for small comapnies can't run into thousands. As for a mailing list, we do have such a beast, and somewhat interstingly, 60% of the people on it were a no show. Some of them were invited guests and few of them took the trouble to RSVP they weren't coming, let alone turn up. I think the most desirable item on our business plan would be a stable venue...but affordable venues complete with doors seem somewhat hard to locate..I would agree that flogging tickets to other actors and friends is pointless, for it seems many shows are propped up by our theatre colleagues, and there's not a sustainable future in that. As for 'underpublicised event', we had more publicity for this show than ever before, and yet a worse return... as you suggest, it could be the material, but given the feedback received, some thought it our best effort to date. PS: I don't have your email Walter, but would be happy to give any ideas you have a shot.. cheers JG
WordartSat, 3 Nov 2012, 02:22 pm

Not personal

It is not just ALIS mate. All the theatre companies of all stripes need to look long and hard at their marketing models, their audiences, and their raisons d'etre if they want audiences; if they are indeed AmDramSocs then, no, carry on as they are and play to the audiences they get, do the shows they want (Including Bloody "ïmportance of") as full houses and originality are not necessarily the prime purpose of the AmDram and its practitioners. In your post, "more publicity than ever" does not translate to effective publicity nor effective penetration, it just means more than before. You do not need a mega budget or much of one at all to achieve one's purpose. The traditional WA model does not work any more, so let us change the way we do things. For instance Upstart financed their latest show through Pozible, first one in WA as far as I am aware, that shows positive thinking, and they got a result!
Johnny GrimSat, 3 Nov 2012, 02:46 pm

I'm all ears

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm most interested in hearing your gospel. JG
caroleSun, 4 Nov 2012, 02:18 am

I REALLY like that idea of

I REALLY like that idea of making the tickets for the final night of a show a bit more expensive...... It's interesting to note that a lot of the 'clubs', 'groups' etc are having the same audience issues. I for one feel like banging my head against a wall when everyone waits to come to the last night of a run and will happily sit right at the back of the hall, when no amount of begging will get people to support an opening weekend when they could be sitting at the front!!!!!! AAAAARRRRGH!!!!!! I find it especially annoying when we have worked hard for years to get beyond the old 'amateur theatrics' curse - the perception that you won't get as good a show on opening night as you will on the last weekend. My mission in life the last three years has been trying really hard to promote a culture where all the local theatre minded folk support the opening couple of shows to help get the word out there, and the back end of the season usually then takes care of itself, through recommendations, or just those people who habitually book late, just in time to not miss out! Our "Early bookings" scheme used to sell 80% of our tickets, for a modest discount ($17 instead of $20), but these days we find our door sales account for a much larger slice of the pie than they did a decade ago. A young acquaintance said to me a few years back that the advent of texts and social media meant people can now be a lot more last minute about things and still have some success whipping up a group of friend to go out with, and I think that's the truth. Scary though, as a director, or as a producer with your own company, when you have to pray for door sales to boost the crowd each night, I can't help but hanker for the old days when everyone pre-booked.............
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