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This post removed 16 October 2009 by the administrator on the request of J Borissow.

Ok, first off: legit agents have TOO many applicants to go scouting for more from sites online. Second, never trust anyone who contacts you from such an online profile (unless you initiated the communication). Third, check MEAA and see if this agency is listed with them. Although MEAA doesn't offer recommendations on agencies, if the company isn't listed, it doesn't bode well. Fourth, this company is either very new or having trouble with their staffing (contact page shows several positions 'vacant' - who posts that on their site?). Fifth, on their about us page, I would hold them to and check their policies: "For talent - at the discretion of management, folio shoots and assessments are provided at no cost without any further obligation, so new people who are interested in entering the field can do so without the expenses that have been prohibitive to many in the past. We charge 10 to 20% of any fees paid for work that we provide. We do not sign models exclusively to us without a firm paid contract and may encourage you to seek further representation within your field where necessary. SEEN often works in association with affiliated modelling agencies to provide talent and photographic services." Six, I would find out who is signed up with them. Testimonials would be nice... Seven, to have a .com.au site, they must provide an ABN: you can check the ABN and find out the company history if there is any. ... On first appearances, it doesn't seem bad; perhaps just new and trying different tactics to get new clients. Without further info about them, I would tread cautiously, as with any other agent. Additionally, I advise you to read our FAQ on agents, and don't be so desperate to sign up with one that you forget to check policies, etc before joining. Find out about the company's staff history in the industry too. Someone not familiar with the biz would hardly be able to find you work. Do a google search for the names listed on their contact page too. Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

Well I must say that I am not pleased to find this entry in the blogs. Firstly, as the owner of SEEN, I find the mere question an insult. You would think that after 4 years operation, and 1500 models through the door, that those in the industry would have heard of us... But there you go! I also don't like this form of unqualified media. It opens doors to competing businesses and their friends to anonomously rubbish their competition and put doubt in peoples minds. You would think an association would know better!? I would like to take issue with the first comments from the reply from Puppets in Melbourne. There is a type of staff aquisition process called attrition and it is used by nearly every major organisation in the world. It requires drawing talent from an extremely large pool to find the very best after you have sivved through the pool. The theory is, the larger the pool, the better the talent at the other end. So, to say "Ok, first off: legit agents have TOO many applicants to go scouting for more from sites online.". This is absolute rubbish! Most agencies are constantly looking for new talent in numerous ways. Then "Second, never trust anyone who contacts you from such an online profile (unless you initiated the communication)." I have to ask the question, Why Not? It is no more of a fear than being contacted by phone or in person. It is 2009. We use the internet because it is better and faster. That's it! Thirdly the MEAA, a fine organisation I am sure. However, totally irrelevant to what we do. We are a new business that looks for new talent and then showcases them to the industry. That is what we do entirely. The MEAA is of no use to us and we are of no use to them. Our ABN is 22 120 991 184. Please find testemonials below as written from mour myspace pages.. Natalie Montoya: just wanna say the pics turned out great.. thank you so much Samantha Beverstock: Hey Guys - Just wanting to say thanks for such a great job of my portfolio pics! love them! thanx again!xo Tanya Barahm: Hey guys, thanks heaps for the photoshoot on Thursday, was awesome and thanks heaps to Josie she did a magnificant job on hair and make-up, cant wait to see the pics :) Claire Mobbs: i have been so excited about my photos all day today haha thank you soooooo soo muchh best photographer ever seriously Kim Bunder: hey kellie and james i got my pics yesterday thank you soooo much Kylie Pearson: Just wanted to say a big thank you to you Kellie and James, you guys are fantastic! Really appreciate everything! Thanks Kylie Kayleigh Chiswell: love my photos, thanks sooo much! Savannah Chattaway: thanx heaps for ur great photography, been getting good comments about them Krystal Hans: Hey Guys. Was a great shoot yeaterday, i really enjoyed it. Cant wait to see the pics on thursday =] Erica Rea: Hey Guys Just wanted to say a big thank you for my photos, I love them. Thanks heaps, have a good day. Love Erica xx Chelsea Fryer: the pictures are amazing Alara Bracey: Thanks so much for the photos i LOVE them! Stefanie King: Just letting you know i have recieved my photos and disc today and they are fabulous and i'm so happy with the work from SEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you so much. Melissa Wilson: Thanks for contacting me I really enjoyed the shoot and love my photos, James did such a great job! Sam Pescod: Just wanted to say a big thanks to you and everyone for today, I had a really great time. The guy that took my photos (james? I can't remember his name sorry, which is awful since he remembered mine!!!) was fun & approachable and I enjoyed working with him. I learnt a lot (but still a lot to go) and after today, this is a career that I would definately consider working hard towards and pursuing. Whiney Dawson: Thank you for an awesome day! You all made us feel so welcome and comfortable!....and especially a BIG Thank you from Whitney for making her first time experience with this photo shoot so enjoyable. She said that James(?) the photographer was so helpful and made her feel at ease, and her confidence grew from there, enough to get her personality out! So please pass on my appreciation and gratitude to him also! Savannah Lee Hong: the shoot went great the other weekend :) Mel Eliko: shoot went well. Can’t wait to see photos up.

James, welcome to Theatre Australia. I know nothing about the modelling industry, so feel free to ignore me completely. I'm an electrician who plays around in theatres in my spare time. I see you signed up an hour ago, no doubt to rebut Na's general comments. This is basically a theatre site, and if someone like Strawberry comes in and asks a question as she has, she will usually be pointed toward the FAQ's on dodgy agents. I don't think you would deny there are a few out there, and if Strawberry has reservations, then why shouldn't she express them?. Na's general advice was to "tread cautiously, as with any other agent." Good advice, I think. After reading your company info you posted under your profile, I think it sounds legit, but would still advise prospective 'talent' to tread cautiously. You provide photo shoots for no fee at the discretion of management. Reading between the lines (correct me if I'm wrong), you provide free photo shoots to those who you think you will be able to get work for. I don't think you've done yourself any favours by posting the above testimonials. All they say is that you took photos. Where are the ones that say "thanks for the work"? www.meltheco.org.au

Hi Jeff Thanks for your comments. If you read our website you will see that we are predominantly finding new prospective models an appropriate and safe way into the industry. SEEN is set up as an intermediary between model and agent. The idea is; for a potential model to get unbiased advice so they don't end up with a dodgy agent. As part of our process we photograph these people to ascertain their potential/ability and so that they have a portfolio should they wish. Hence, all the talk about the photos. This is (in my opinion) the best way to test a model. Actually do a full blown fashion shoot with them. We believe this gives us a real edge in determining potential and the model gets an edge due to the high quality of her/his portfolio. That is why we focus so much on the photography and this is our main income stream. We make no secret of this. Models don't have to spend a thing and we will still forward them on if they are suitable. So, to find a single job for a model is not our primary concern. We want to help them into a career and this means forwarding them to a good, appropriate agent or training facility. We do not charge for our services other than photography because we want to remain independent. We don't want our decisions as to which agent to reccomend to be based on a profit motive. We want the model to have the best agent regardless of any financial benefit. Nowadays we only work as an agency proper on the Gold Coast and everywhere else we reccomend other agencies that we have independently assessed. We are currently in the process of putting some work testimonials on our web site and also pulling down the 12 month old vacancy list that I honestly forgot was there. So, I hope this clears up any confusion. I will have to disagree with you though Jeff. Strawberry could have contacted us for testemonials and we would happily provide them. This blog puts doubt into peoples minds about SEEN when we are a highly ethical organisation. How are we to know that she is not good friends with a competing company and is just trying to cause trouble? I'm sure you understand. Anyhow, all the best. Here's to being "SEEN"! :-)

It's hard to take a supposedly legitimate business seriously when they can't even spell correctly.

I'm not going to respond really because Jeff pretty much covered what I would have said (that we're in the habit of telling ALL people to tread cautiously with ALL agents, since most people who ask these questions are minors and ignorant of how agents work and what they do). I will add this: "How are we to know that she is not good friends with a competing company and is just trying to cause trouble? I'm sure you understand." We don't. We never do. We treat each and every request as if it were true, because if we didn't a lot of really young, naive and hasty kids would sign up with really dodgy agencies. If a couple of people out there are using such tactics, well then, that's an industry-wide problem to be dealt with by teaching better ethics in business. ... Also "Then "Second, never trust anyone who contacts you from such an online profile (unless you initiated the communication)." I have to ask the question, Why Not? It is no more of a fear than being contacted by phone or in person. It is 2009. We use the internet because it is better and faster." Why not? Because again you're dealing mainly with young, naive and hasty kids who might not think twice about giving their private info out online. Evidently you have not heard much about phishing, online scams, and online paedophiles. But you know, telling young kids to be cautious in the light of all these things is evidently not good for business, so I'll just never advise kids to be cautious again. (Just because the adult population is smart enough to distinguish a real email from a bad one doesn't mean the enlightened technological youths can. EDIT: Whoops, yeah lots of ADULTS get scammed every day, so obviously some adults aren't smarter /end edit. And just because you're legit doesn't mean others are. Yeah, it's 2009 - does that mean we have magically gotten rid of all the bad people with computers?) Sorry if I sound pissed off in that last point, but I take online crime seriously. How about you? I didn't say that you were dodgy (although as always the agent in question turns up to tell me I have), simply provided a few little ways of critically reviewing the information provided. As always, the only thing I ever truly say is to be cautious, know your rights, and not sign on the dotted line without understanding the company and their background. Surely as a business who is highly ethical (your words), you would advise the very same to your clients? Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

Thanks Doug!

So what is the difference between being approached in the street or via phone? I do understand what you are trying to say but you can't communicate on an uncensored blog on one side and complain about stranger danger on the internet on the other. The internet is a legitemate and powerfull commmunication medium. Not using it as a business person is ridiculous to suggest. Show caution.. Definately. Check them out.. Definately. Monitor your kids activities... Always!

Absolutely f* all difference. But whilst we've had decades of teaching our kids "stranger danger", we've had extremely little time to teach them the same critical thinking and awareness about the internet. Especially since many adults don't know, or have trouble, using the internet. I worked for a website company and we had to figure out what the protocols were for dealing with minors who signed up to use the site. The idea is that you always play "better safe than sorry". Plenty of kids sign up to Theatre Australia not realising that if they post their phone number or home address it can be seen all around the world. The disconnect here seems to be that you are seeing this from a business point of view; instead think of it as a parent. Would you want a complete stranger coming up to you on the street, OR online and asking them to model? As a parent, naturally I would be concerned for my child's safety. Secondly, this site is not an "uncensored blog". It is a forum, a large one at that. It is also a site for which the admin has a policy that if someone contacts them about a post for which they have issue with, it will be taken down. (Read the FAQ about this site) If you have a problem with what anyone has written, please don't complain to me; you have the right to request removal by contacting the site admin. Thirdly, "you can't communicate on an uncensored blog on one side and complain about stranger danger on the internet on the other." Of course I can. It's not the same thing. Writing on a forum IS NOT the same thing as signing up with an agent who contacts me via a profile I leave on a website. In the first instance, I have initiated contact (or the initial poster has above) by commenting. In the second instance, a complete stranger has contacted the initial poster. Either way, whether a person initiates it, or the company does, that DOES NOT mean that they should go blindly in and not do their research. This is an utter strawman. If you (or anyone else) contacts me to work for or with them without me having posted a work wanted ad or via an online profile, I will do a quick background check. I make sure that whatever information I post is something I'm happy for the whole world to see. I've read up on a range of topics about online security, and know what not to do (many people don't). Furthermore, I spent a large part of last night banning a whole bunch of new members signing up who were doing so just to advertise viagra - anyone and everyone can join this site so we get a lot of f*ing dodgy people coming here that aren't noticed by passers-by. We often have lots of people who sign up just to contact the members and send them phishing or lewd (read: R-rated) messages. So yes, I CAN and WILL complain about people being too naive to do proper diligence when dealing with agents. And yes I CAN and WILL continue advising people to be cautious. Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

Well Jeff, I contacted admin yesterday to remove the blog as I felt it created scepticism towards my company. It is still there today and that is why I joined today, so I could add some clarity. The document in question is actually also covered by copyright, but that also has been ignored. Doesn't say much for the organisation really does it?

Uh yeah, unless you account for one thing: the site admin has a day job and is no doubt also swamped with other things to do in regards to his own life and the running of this site. He deals with this stuff fairly quickly (ie. within a week), as evidenced by similar situations in the past. (I also note that he is currently online as I type this) Also, I'm not Jeff. Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

Jeff..... That'd be me. I didn't realise we looked so much alike, Na. Must be the tiger. In my opinion, asking to have negative (though none of this has really been negative toward your company) comment removed, rather buts you in the "I think he doth protest too much" camp. My opinion, and mine only. www.meltheco.org.au

...Doesn't say much about the quality of members, either, I should think. I mean if more saw what had happened more could have joined the cause. Then the pounding on the Admin's door would have been deafening and a solution found more quickly. What am I saying, that's a completely different forum topic altogether. Isn't it? Daniel M.

Sorry.... Na. From your repsonse I would have to conclude that you are involved with this organisation, more than just being a member, due to your intimate knowledge of the administrator's movements? One would think that considering the responsibility of an organisation such as this that they would defer posts until they have been scrutinised. Otherwise you could have all sorts of unsavoury characters, as you have mentioned, saying whatever they like and approaching whomever they like? I also notice that the header to the initial blog (forum) is still there, causing more confusion for people who are seeking genuine information on SEEN. I thought associations were supposed to be unbiased and supportive of the industry? Not to create confusion in order to bring ill repute to a genuinely ethical company for seemingly no good reason? Lets let the law decide? Anyone wanting to know the outcome drop over to seenmodels.com.au and we'll keep you informed. My apologies for getting so angry but these trivial little forums can be used to sabotage and I will not stand for it! Kimberley if you are reading, what are you and your office bearers doing allowing uncensored comment on an official site? You are providing a vehicle for trouble makers and this time I am the victim! For god's sake, vet the comments before they go up. How would you like it if I posted randomly on an official acting website asking if it's true that your association is a scam? What does that imply? Exactly, the same implication that is made about my company. You should all be ashamed! Isn't a puppet something you use to convey a message without having to bear personal scrutiny? You know, like what's happening here. Using a medium to cause an effect without taking any responsibility? A cowards front if you will? Don't you just love free expression! Sorry Na but at least I have the guts to use my name and not hide behind my company's and secondly, you did not concede one of my points when I explained attrition and how agencies work. Seems to me like you are just out to be unkind and meddling! YUK! Maybe you have been pulling strings a little too long for your own good!

Yes I do protest Jeff. Since this forum went up we have expereinced many clients calling with concerns. If you spent as much time and sweat building a company to have it slandered in this way, so would you! Don't you have something to do that is your business?

Amazing. That is just what I have inferred in the topic I began about the same person you are in fact referring to James. No joke. Check it out, if you haven't already done so. Daniel M.

Hi again James, I think you'll find that Jeff is the last member here who would speak out of turn or seek to cause harm to a business associated with a member on this site. I think targeting him is a futile exercise simply because it's not he who you should be targeting, based on his character and the way he has conducted himself for the most part. Na, on the other hand is definitely someone who deserves your scorn and directions of frustration and/or anger. From her posts, especially recently she has begun to become a very mean little girl and not worth knowing. I think she is envious of her puppets life and knowing she can't have that life has become angry with the world in one serious way. Also, her recent trip to America didn't really work out very well from what she has told me. I think it's all crashing down around her and she needs to find a victim (s). I hope your business is not too badly damaged. But remember, just because something unsavoury happened on the internet doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the real world, in real terms; i.e: Seek legal assistance, if you deem it worthy enough to seek reparations. It's all here as evidence, I'm sure. The only question which will matter is will it be cost-effective for your business? Best Wishes, Daniel M.

What the F? I restate: this is a FORUM. You either do not understand the concept, or are conflating the idea that an online forum is run by any competing agency. It's not. Go read the FAQ about this site and who runs it. Secondly, I have been a regular of this forum for well over 10 years. Yes, I'm familiar with how it works. That doesn't make a conspiracy. Knowing that the site admin's name is Grant Malcolm, I quickly glanced in the top left corner of the site to where the "who's online" box is and saw his name listed. He also sometimes uses the member profile 'administrator', instead of his own name. That just makes me a user familiar with the layout/design of the site, not some sort of insider conspiracy nutter. As with most online forums, certain members are given a little more priveldge, me being one of them. I only have a limited access to the backend, but use this access only to ban spammers and the occasional dodgy person (ie. ones who try to illicit anything to do with sex). Again if you have problems with how this site is run, talk with the site admin. I only follow the policies he's set. He's chosen to take the line of: freedom of speech, unless he has been contacted on the basis of libel to have the post removed. As mentioned before, there have been previous instances of this occuring and in due course he will deal with it (as for the above initial post being removed, it is my suspicion that another member, and NOT the site admin has deleted the info) See any thread on the Blackbox agency on this site for examples. (You are furthermore conflating that just because the ITA runs/owns the site, it has any real oversight on it. It may have started that way, but this site has since gone its own almost independent way. It's a FORUM, not a site for a single organisation. The majority of members are amateur actors in WA, but represent a far broader community than that) "How would you like it if I posted randomly on an official acting website asking if it's true that your association is a scam? What does that imply?" I would feel just as you do; angry. This has happened to me before. However, I was smart enough NOT to post my thoughts about it visibly online for all to see, and dealt with the matter privately. Secondly, I would answer politely and calmly, reassuring those interested in my services. I recently had my website hacked, despite all my best efforts to keep it as secure as possible. I was mortified, and all I could do was to reassure my customers and attempt at providing a better and safer service. I took it on board as an opportunity to do better; not yell and scream at those who were my customers or potential customers. Lastly, as this is an online forum. I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT I AM WRITING. NO ONE ELSE IS INVOLVED. Yell at me as much as you like, but this isn't a whole site ganging up on you, just one person trying to explain how the above comments were advice and not at all someone trying to get you. And for your comment about my name. This is one I get so f-ing regularly. Read my damn profile. You'll see 'Na' is short for Naomi, and my f-ing website is in my signature. I hide behind nothing. You want to find out my actual contact info, go right ahead. Frankly, whenever someone asks for a bit of advice about an agency, the agency turns up and screams "how dare we all tell someone to do their research. We're not dodgy". Nobody's saying you are. WE'RE JUST BLOODY ASKING FOR PEOPLE TO DO THEIR BLOODY RESEARCH BEFOREHAND. Why is that so threatening to your business? I'd be very happy if any of my customers were smart enough to actually do me a favour and read the info at my site before sending me random emails about puppetry. It would say to me that they are intelligent and interested enough in my services to find out more, and would be more likely in hiring me for work. EDIT: "... On first appearances, it doesn't seem bad; perhaps just new and trying different tactics to get new clients." This is what I said above. I feel I have no need to respond to normal business practices, since I was pointing out that the company was most likely new, and that's why there are job positions not filled on the contact page. Try a little reading comprehension and you'll find I'm not attacking you as much as you think I am. EDIT TWO: I will also add thanks for posting testimonials and your ABN. This is precisely the type of information that most people would be interested in and use to check the background of any company (agency or not, any business should be checked if you're planning on signing contracts with them). "Strawberry could have contacted us for testemonials and we would happily provide them". You're right, she chose not to contact you; she also chose to use the word 'scam'. Inconvenient and frustrating, but hardly anything the rest of us have control over. Why you couldn't have just politely posted that stuff and requested anyone with questions to contact you privately is beyond me... I'm sorry that one person was worried about the legitimacy of your company. The fact that Strawberry was smart enough to ask for referral information says a lot about them. Most people just want to sign with any agency, give me an agency, and then get ripped off. All because they didn't do their homework. I again ask, what's wrong with doing your homework? EDIT 3: "Isn't a puppet something you use to convey a message without having to bear personal scrutiny? You know, like what's happening here. Using a medium to cause an effect without taking any responsibility? A cowards front if you will?" You evidently have not worked with puppetry at all, and have no concept of the depth provided to it. My logo and company name have nothing to do with 'hiding', but with the fact that I'm actually a puppet maker. You may be surprised to learn that Australia has a professional puppetry industry. But if you want to pretend it has something to do with manipulation, by all means do. Feel free to rebutt any or all of my points above, but when it comes down to it, ALL I WAS SAYING WAS TO RESEARCH ANY COMPANY YOU SIGN CONTRACTS WITH. That's not dangerous, that's not scary, that's not f-ing manipulation. That's common sense in any business. Jeff's comment below is a somewhat calmer version of what I've been trying to say. Most people confuse my bluntness as having an axe to grind, or being some sort of overly assholishness bitch. Actually, it's just that, bluntness. There is no polite way of telling someone to be a smart business person other than being blunt. If you would care to reply to my question, please: What is so wrong with asking people to do due diligence on the companies they're interested in working with? What is so wrong with suggesting that people read policies and fine print? What is so wrong with suggesting a few ways to learn more about said companies? And why is it so wrong to have this information and advice publicly available? Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne

I don't think anyone has libeled your company. An innocent question was asked by someone your company contacted. Why it was asked on this site, I don't know. This is a theatre site, and has little to do with modelling. I have never heard of SEEN, though I am based in Perth, and you seem to mainly Eastern States based, so know nothing of your organisation. I visited your site out of curiosity. It looks very professional. This site is run by volunteers. If Grant had to vet every post before it was able to be viewed, the site would cease to exist. On the whole, the people here are respectful of each other, and answer questions in the best way they can. Though not always. This site is based in WA and a large percentage of users are here in the west. I personally know a lot of the regulars on here. I have never net Na (which is her real name, by the way), but she has been here for a hell of a lot longer than I have, and tends to take on the "Den Mother" role from time to time. :) We are not here to destroy anyones business, and we certainly don't have the power to do so. The original question was asked by Strawberry, who is in QLD, and I have not seen her here before or since. Her details are available to you (as are mine) if you click on the username. Maybe you should contact her directly, and allay her concerns. Then she might come back here and set the record straight. ....and yes, I do have other things to do. I made jam this afternoon, and am off to the theatre shortly to perform our second night of First Sunday In December. Bookings can be made on 9330 4565 www.meltheco.org.au

Regarding 'Testimonials' from clients of a business. I'll, be honest, I rarely put much store in them. Testimonials are like references you put on your work CV - they're always gonna be positive and you're never gonna list referees that have an unfavourable word to say about you. However, an open forum where people can share their views, and the internet is the biggest we have, can be more illuminating and evenhanded. In my opinion, it's gratifying to know that people have been contacting the SEEN model agency to clarify aspects of the business. Nice to know that there are still some people in the world who are prepared to get off their arses, be proactive and put in the legwork to make sure they are managing their careers correctly, rather than putting together an online profile, gettings some shots done and then sitting back to wait for their big break. Seems to me that these people are the kind of intelligent, proactive, genuine, organised people that any agency would want to have on board. Consumers have the right to question the ethics and service delivery of any business they wish to deal with. Responding to consumer enquiries should not be a drama if all is well in the house I would have thought...... Tulipa.

Exactly my point. Passers by of this site swoop in to criticise without realising the hundreds of threads and posts that appear by young actors who aren't willing or interested in doing their homework. They just want fame and/or money, and though we do our best to point them in the right direction, these are always the people who either never come back to see our reponses or simply end up being scammed. An agency representative can come here and see one thread and go up in arms over it; they don't have to deal with the monthly barrage of us trying to knock some business sense into the heads of the less aware. Puppets and patterns at Puppets in Melbourne